I googled and got a walkthrough, even did my first command line......command.
Still, though, this is why desktop linux doesn't stand a chance against Windows or OSX. I should be able to put a DVD in and do nothing more. It's not like that's an oddball request.
regardless of anything else, the fact of the matter is that the general public expects to be able to pull a computer out, install whatever updates it's offered, and then be able to use something as simple as the DVD player.
I hear all the time, people say, 'Oh, linux is so easy, my parents could use it.' This is a great example. If I gave my mom this laptop, and even if I explained the Package Manager (which, admittedly, is pretty simple to understand and use), and then I handed her a DVD, she'd have given up. The error message isn't 'you need codecs', it's 'cannot read resource', which tells me exactly nothing.
Then, even IF she Googled 'DVD ubuntu hardy heron' (which is incredibly unlikely), the top 10 hits all had command line suggestions. That's the consumer experience, whether it's correct or the easiest, it's the consumer experience.
@rcadden Again, computer manufacturers that offer Linux pre-installed will often give you the option of including DVD playback, and whenever Ubuntu finds a format you don't have the codecs for, it will ask you if you want to have the codecs installed, and guess what? They're all in the repositories. Compare that to the clusterf** that is Windows, where WMP will tell you "Would you like to download this codec from the internet?" and you click Ok and then it says "Could not find codec? Would you like to search for it on the internet?" DVD Playback, Java, Flash, Microsoft TT Fonts, and all the necessary codecs are all in the ubuntu-restricted-extras package, which is easily searchable through the Synaptic Package Manager, graphically so, and the one package I tell everyone to install. >.>
That's the public's fault then. Linux isn't an appliance. It's not a toaster. Learn something about it... read a man page or two. Linux isn't for people that don't think they need instructions and if they complain about it, well... too bad. All they are doing is showing their own ignorance, not a weakness in Linux.
@rcadden - Buy a Dell or similar with DVD playback and pay for the 24/7 support, if you want the more traditional 'call up the help desk and swear at them'. ;)
Edy... I couldn't use DVD's in a brand new Windows machine with a DVD drive either and didn't get any error message. On top of that, Windows is codec hell and no, WMP does not help whatsoever.
Thus far, I've popped a DVD into a Windows (fresh install, too) and an OSX computer and had it automatically start up and play, just like that. It's a DVD, not a freakin Divx or something. It's an industry standard.
@zerojay - this is what I get from most Linux users. They preach about how much easier and better Linux is, but they don't realize that consumers don't want to, and shouldn't need to have to read the manual, or research online. They should be able to pick it up and find it easy enough to use without anything else.
Thus far, that's actually been my experience with Ubuntu. It's pretty user-friendly overall, but oversights as simple as DVD playback are what keeps it from being a consumer option.
@edy Exactly. I also don't understand why a computer SHOULD be super easy to use. It's a complex piece of machinery. People should learn about it before using it. People have to get a license before driving a car... and if they are stupid enough to be trying to drive around without any oil in the thing, it's their own fault.
I don't see why computers, which are far more complex, should be any different.
as @edythemighty points out, my wife's new Dell laptop plays DVDs.
People need to quit confusing the community "free" linux with the version that is paid for when you buy from a vendor. @rcadden, like @edythemighty says, point your mom to Dell or one of the other vendors if you want her to have out of the box DVD. Otherwise spend the 37 seconds and install the codecs for her.
Go download the free version of windows from the Internet....the whole damn thing is illegal. Not just the DVD playback.
@rcadden - Again, you're comparing a Windows or OSX computer (which granted, you got into as a hackintosh) which is often backed with customer support for when that crap happens. Shell out some $600 or so for a low-end Dell and spring for the customer support, and then make a comparison. I'll admit I'm no Joe Sixpack but anyone can tell you're making faulty comparisons there
@zerojay: I'm inclined to agree with you, except that inclination left a long time ago. Expecting people to know anything is a reach, even for avid Linux advocates who claim that X, Y, and Z distros are too easy and aren't purist enough. If Linux wants to aspire for mainstream acceptance, then the user experience has to match with the expectations of users in the mainstream.
If Linux advocates want to claim that people are ignorant and need to learn something, then they should get out of their command-line comfort zones and teach something.
We're breaking new ground here! Don't stop posting on this thread until we've SOLVED THE PROBLEM! : 0
Really, though. Running linux is a great way to learn more about computers. There are other ways to use computers if you're not interested in learning more (not aimed at you, Ricky) And GUI's make people stupid. And keep me employed!
Who said "You should make things as easy to use as possible, but not overly so."?
GUIs and UIs should not make people stupid. They should make people want to discover more about thier investments. Unfortunately, this line of thinking relies on the fact that people want to learn more about something rather than get something done...
@arjw That's good and all, but you and @rcadden are ignoring the very clear example me, @zerojay and @BUGabundo have mentioned. In Linux it is a simple thing of putting any format in there, and the OS will take care of automatically downloading the codecs you need and installing them. WMP has never done this, not even for a simple .avi file. It always, consistently fails to download a simple codec, and instead sends me to a Windows website and a generic help page telling me to search for the codecs. Gthx, telling me I need to Google it.
@BUGabundo - this is a fresh install of Ubuntu. I inserted the DVD, totem actually auto-opened (which is nice), and says, 'Cannot read from resource'. That's the only message I got.
What's more, when I googled 'DVD ubuntu hardy heron', I ended up with thousands of results, all exactly what I was looking for, which tells me that I'm not having an oddball experience.
I've got Ubuntu installed on this machine so that I can genuinely experience and learn this stuff. I'm making the effort, just relaying my 'consumer' response, as well.
If Totem had given me the message, 'I need to download some codecs to play this DVD, is that ok?', and I could've clicked 'yes', and boom, done, THAT'S fine.
Does Windows XP play the DVDs if you just "put a DVD in and do nothing more?" Why are we stuck with playing a DVD/VOB only by the way, what about AVI/MP4? PDF? tar.gz/RAR? Windows doesn't even come with a decent text editor.
After installing Windows Vista, I feel like only 20% of the job is done. Then starts the hellish process of installing drivers, essential utilities, programming tools and what not. 2-3 days of your life you are not going to get back and you have to manually keep the apps up to date and I have no idea how Windows guys put up with such nuisance.
@tabrez: when i asked @zerojay if he was sarcastic or not i was referring to this statement: "That's the public's fault then. Linux isn't an appliance. It's not a toaster. Learn something about it... read a man page or two. Linux isn't for people that don't think they need instructions and if they complain about it, well... too bad. All they are doing is showing their own ignorance, not a weakness in Linux."
I haven't used Windows full time in over 10 years and each time I am forced to use it, I'm literally shocked that anyone could use it. It's clear that inertia is the only real reason Windows is still being used.
Ricky, glad you got it working... in my short Ubuntu experience, it asked me all that stuff right away when putting in a DVD.
@edy: In Linux it is a simple thing of putting any format in there, and the OS will take care of automatically downloading the codecs you need and installing them.
What does a user do when they don't know what a codec is? What about when the OS doesn't tell them a codec is needed? Or how about that off chance that off chance that they know what it is, the OS tells them, and yet they don't find it having played the google/linux-forum-r-us game? Who is the problem then, Linux, the Linux community, or the person looking?
Its fine if we want to say that people should be computing smarter. I'm with @zerojay, stupid people shouldn't be on a keyboard no more than behind the wheel. However, we have driving schools that make driving accessible and give a semblance of there being more to driving than 4 wheels and pedal control. When is the last time you heard joe-casual user saying they were looking into Linux courses because they wanted to discover more? It doesn't happen, because frankly speaking, the elitest attidue of the louder Linux advocates keeps that at bay.
@arjw Then again, the idea I've mentioned often before, a 'first run wizard/mage' that guides you through getting these things set up, such as codecs, productivity/office software, etc. The Fedora DVD just gives you a huge checklist divided into categories. Granted, overkill since most of the packages are old by next week, but it's a step that should be taken. But again, from my experience, it's always been pop the DVD in, get asked if I want the codecs, click Yes, and done. The first run mage is still something I keep mentioning, but am not doing mahself cuz....well, you took part in that conversation yesterday so you know ;)
As Ricky points out, sometimes finding Linux information on how to do one little thing is hard! If you search for Ubuntu, you'll find tutorials for lots of versions of Ubuntu. If you don't know that 8.04 is nicknamed Hardy Heron, you'll have a tougher time.
Also, it's important to note that Totem is an application which Ubuntu chose to include in their distribution. Totem, or even Ubuntu, is not "Linux". It's just one flavor of Linux. Ubuntu has made great strides towards usability compared to other distributions, but there's still a long way to go before it's Mom-Installable.
>> Candidates for annoying bugs are anything that aggravates you about Ubuntu. Using the system should be fun, even if it's not very functional. Stuff like repetitive dialog boxes that ask the same question over and over (or worse, pop back up after you told them to go away) are perfect candidates for this list.
From my perspective I have to agree with @rcadden on this. I'm currently running Ubuntu to get a grasp of a Linux OS but my problem is that I work 7 days a week, when I need to do something on my computer I want it to just do it, not have to spend time figuring out how to do it. From my standing, Windows seems to do that.
I suspect that if I had the time to spend to sit down and understand how it all works and research I may well end up with a different opinion, however as it currently stands with me if I have the choice of whetehr to boot into Windows or boot into UIbuntu, Windows is going to win.
To be clear - having to apply updates, or individually install things as needed is not a bad thing. With any Windows PC, and with this install of Ubuntu, I was immediately greeted with the need to download updates, and that's not an issue.
The issue, in this case, was that for whatever reason, something as simple as a DVD would not play, and gave me a generic error message, without offering to help me fix it. Apparently that's not how it's supposed to work, which is good. However, given the number of Google results, I'm inclined to believe that it is, in fact, a common experience.
As I said, aside from that, Ubuntu has actually been a rather pleasant and user-friendly experience. Everything else, thus far, has just worked.
@norcalbarney That sort of mentality is so 90's man! As I've mentioned, there are computer vendors who will sell you a computer preinstalled with your choice of Linux distro (often the big 3, Ubuntu, Suse, and...that bastard distro) and will sell you contracts for customer support and do most of what you ask, including changing out your distro for another, at least companies will. It's not just a "I'm gonna download this new flavor and install myself because no one else can".
@arjwWhat does a user do when they don't know what a codec is?
You really can't blame gnu/linux alone for this. Windows Vista gives same errors about missing codecs when you try to play (n-k) different video formats(k = 2 or 3: wmv, vob, etc.). The difference is, it is trivial to install required codecs in Ubuntu and it is "you are on your own" on Windows.
In conclusion: If it doesn't work, file a bug, and it'll probably get fixed by next week. Try filing a bug for Windows, and it'll get fixed by next year if next year is when Windows releases a new version of their OS ;)
@edy: its not fixed in the next release, its shaded with a 3D button and different funcitonality to disguise the fact that it was never fixed in teh first place, while requiring a higher spec system to do the same task :P
@munkimatt believe me, gnu/linux is not that hard when compared to using Windows: it is just a question of familiarity.
People are not averse to putting in time to learn how to use a computer the first time - using Windows. But they don't want to put any effort in learning a new OS, they just want gnu/linux to work exactly like Windows.
The experience of a person who is familiar with gnu/linux and now moving on to Windows will be more frustrating since there is no quality community forums for Windows out there like there are for gnu/linux(mailing lists, forums, irc, etc.)
LoL...I once searched for a good Windows bittorent client, and I stumbled upon a forum where someone asked much the same. I peek the forum, and one person says "Why would you want software that is used for violating copyright 99% of the time?" and the admin of the forum responded much the same, and effectively closed the thread at 2 replies -.- What an a-hole....I download linux distros through bt, and music from Jamendo \m/
@tabrez but on the occasions I asked for help (not with Ubuntu admittedly, another distro) I was pretty pissed off with the answers I got back. Yes, it's all well and good telling me to Google for it but I have and ended up here so just replying "google" doesn't exactly help.
@zerojay I know where you are coming from, but everyone used to say that everything worked under Apple and was difficult under Windows (which also was restrictive and anti-competitive). Now it is the other way round and Linux is just a newbie (and enthusiasts toy).
I like Linux but I side with @munkimatt on this argument
@BUGabundo I had filed a bug related to wrong script generated for offline download by SPM soon after April 2008 release. The patch was also submitted immediately. It took almost 5 months for the patch to be applied.
Another bug that I filed almost a year ago, #158601, not fixed in 8.10 Beta release.
@zero You've gotta understand here, I'm not having a go at any distro at all. But you've gotta question how at the age of 12 I manged to pick up how to work a Windows PC fairly adequately without having the abilty to turn to Google to ask for advice but now I'm 25 and sat there looking at Ubuntu sometimes thinking "What the fu..."
I disagree with everyone a bit here xD @WaveyDavey001 - Windows isn't the Holy Grail of usability, but OSX isn't always intuitive either. Apps built on Cocoa will often not maximize completely, which is sometimes stupid because sometimes you want an app to cover the whole screen to eliminate distractions and maximize usage of your screen space, especially when on smaller screens such as on laptops. There's also horrible window management, where you don't always have a sense of how many windows of a certain program (browser, docs, etc) you have open. D:
@munkimatt support in gnu/linux communities is largely driven by volunteer effort, so it is bound to deliver mixed results. But if you just hang in there and get to know the channels better, in a few months time you will know how to get every single one of your queries answered through IRC, Forums or Mailing Lists.
To me, support for issues about Windows means Googling or IMing your friends till you drop dead.
@munkimatt - You're severely underestimating yourself, and the fact that yes, humans can be trained, and once we fall into some sort of routine, it can prove difficult to break out of it.
@zerojay I don't know mate, I'm fairly intuitive and if I'm really stuck just point me in the right direction and I'll figure it out. But like I said at the start, I've got it on my PC for a reason, and that's to learn. I'm going to stick at it until I get the hang of it.
Oh and just another thing, anyone here see the problems I had getting it installed in the first place? It was a nightmare, enough to put any curious novice off
@munkimatt Seeing how I compile every piece of software on my machine manually and installed it all manually, so... no, can't say I can help you there. ;)
My wife installed Ubuntu with just a few clicks on her laptop with zero problems and zero help from me.
i don't disagree @edythemighty things do go wrong, but the point I was making was that people point and blame Microsoft for historical things rather than factual things. It is the pantomime baddy.
"Normal" people who use Linux I am guessing are those who use it out of the box (buying an "Eee" etc). Most discussion that you see is by fans and enthusiasts who can be bothered to try 20 different things, before getting a USB modem to work or similar.
I know I will likely be using Linux almost exclusively in a year or two, but not now.
But that's just the thing! With the 'EeePC' and all those other Linux-based PCs, we're seeing a shift away from " fans and enthusiasts who can be bothered to try 20 different things" and to a commercially viable operating system with decent tech support
@zerojay I believe the problem was with my RAID setup. If I was so determined to get it installed there would have been no way I would have taken all my media off and backed up it etc. It was literally only because I wanted to put the effort in.
@edy but wasn't there a statistic on Engadget the other day along the lines of "there's 8 Linux Eees returned to every 1 XP Eee"? Doesn't that suggest that it's not at a point yet where it was really that commercially viable?
@edythemighty I agree again, but as a "high street" consumer I expect to be able to do high street things. Office Suite - Check, Internet Connectivity - Check, Some Games - Check, eMail - Check. Then I want to synchronise my phone - FAIL. Then I buy one of those fancy USB dongle things that there pushing - FAIL then I wanna download and install an extra programme or two that my mates are using - FAIL.
Repositries/Suppositries WTF? I just want it to work
So the shift away has started, but aint there yet.
I have been dual-booting for some time now and really like Ubuntu. However, at times, I have felt the frustration that @rcadden mentioned. Linux has a lot of promise and I want to migrate completely to it but I'm not there yet. I'll keep exploring it and learning and hopefully soon I'll be able to migrate 100%.
75 comments so far
@rcadden Do you haz all the codecs necessary for DVD playback?
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
Think you need this Ricky http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Hardy
1 year, 1 month ago by gerrymoth
I googled and got a walkthrough, even did my first command line......command.
Still, though, this is why desktop linux doesn't stand a chance against Windows or OSX. I should be able to put a DVD in and do nothing more. It's not like that's an oddball request.
1 year, 1 month ago by rcadden
@rcadden Nonsense. It's all available in the Synaptic Package Manager, with no need to even consider the command line. >.>
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
Ricky, you realize that them providing DVD playback in the box is illegal, right?
1 year, 1 month ago by zerojay
@zerojay - Illegal if you don't pay for the codecs, which is what Dell does, they include the price of the codecs in the final price
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
I'm guessing that codec limitations is also why there's no video player on the G1 out of the box.
Besides, using the command line is fun! All hackers need to read this : http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html
1 year, 1 month ago by norcalbarney
regardless of anything else, the fact of the matter is that the general public expects to be able to pull a computer out, install whatever updates it's offered, and then be able to use something as simple as the DVD player.
1 year, 1 month ago by rcadden
I hear all the time, people say, 'Oh, linux is so easy, my parents could use it.' This is a great example. If I gave my mom this laptop, and even if I explained the Package Manager (which, admittedly, is pretty simple to understand and use), and then I handed her a DVD, she'd have given up. The error message isn't 'you need codecs', it's 'cannot read resource', which tells me exactly nothing.
Then, even IF she Googled 'DVD ubuntu hardy heron' (which is incredibly unlikely), the top 10 hits all had command line suggestions. That's the consumer experience, whether it's correct or the easiest, it's the consumer experience.
1 year, 1 month ago by rcadden
@rcadden Again, computer manufacturers that offer Linux pre-installed will often give you the option of including DVD playback, and whenever Ubuntu finds a format you don't have the codecs for, it will ask you if you want to have the codecs installed, and guess what? They're all in the repositories. Compare that to the clusterf** that is Windows, where WMP will tell you "Would you like to download this codec from the internet?" and you click Ok and then it says "Could not find codec? Would you like to search for it on the internet?" DVD Playback, Java, Flash, Microsoft TT Fonts, and all the necessary codecs are all in the ubuntu-restricted-extras package, which is easily searchable through the Synaptic Package Manager, graphically so, and the one package I tell everyone to install. >.>
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
That's the public's fault then. Linux isn't an appliance. It's not a toaster. Learn something about it... read a man page or two. Linux isn't for people that don't think they need instructions and if they complain about it, well... too bad. All they are doing is showing their own ignorance, not a weakness in Linux.
1 year, 1 month ago by zerojay
@rcadden - Buy a Dell or similar with DVD playback and pay for the 24/7 support, if you want the more traditional 'call up the help desk and swear at them'. ;)
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
Edy... I couldn't use DVD's in a brand new Windows machine with a DVD drive either and didn't get any error message. On top of that, Windows is codec hell and no, WMP does not help whatsoever.
1 year, 1 month ago by zerojay
@zerojay: you better be sarcastic.
1 year, 1 month ago by constantine
@constantine No, I'm not being sarcastic even in the slightest bit.
1 year, 1 month ago by zerojay
@constantine - Believe it or not, it happens. Windows isn't the Holy Grail of usability :-/ It's just what the general public is accustomed to.
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
Thus far, I've popped a DVD into a Windows (fresh install, too) and an OSX computer and had it automatically start up and play, just like that. It's a DVD, not a freakin Divx or something. It's an industry standard.
@zerojay - this is what I get from most Linux users. They preach about how much easier and better Linux is, but they don't realize that consumers don't want to, and shouldn't need to have to read the manual, or research online. They should be able to pick it up and find it easy enough to use without anything else.
Thus far, that's actually been my experience with Ubuntu. It's pretty user-friendly overall, but oversights as simple as DVD playback are what keeps it from being a consumer option.
1 year, 1 month ago by rcadden
@edy Exactly. I also don't understand why a computer SHOULD be super easy to use. It's a complex piece of machinery. People should learn about it before using it. People have to get a license before driving a car... and if they are stupid enough to be trying to drive around without any oil in the thing, it's their own fault.
I don't see why computers, which are far more complex, should be any different.
1 year, 1 month ago by zerojay
as @edythemighty points out, my wife's new Dell laptop plays DVDs.
People need to quit confusing the community "free" linux with the version that is paid for when you buy from a vendor. @rcadden, like @edythemighty says, point your mom to Dell or one of the other vendors if you want her to have out of the box DVD. Otherwise spend the 37 seconds and install the codecs for her.
Go download the free version of windows from the Internet....the whole damn thing is illegal. Not just the DVD playback.
1 year, 1 month ago by dantrevino
@rcadden: insert DVD
open totem
choose DVD
it will ask you to install codecs, let it go online and your done.
how hard is it?
i did it so many times i lost track.
so yeah its out of the box. and XP wont run any DVD either UNLESS you install some software on it.
1 year, 1 month ago by BUGabundo
@rcadden - Again, you're comparing a Windows or OSX computer (which granted, you got into as a hackintosh) which is often backed with customer support for when that crap happens. Shell out some $600 or so for a low-end Dell and spring for the customer support, and then make a comparison. I'll admit I'm no Joe Sixpack but anyone can tell you're making faulty comparisons there
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
@zerojay: I'm inclined to agree with you, except that inclination left a long time ago. Expecting people to know anything is a reach, even for avid Linux advocates who claim that X, Y, and Z distros are too easy and aren't purist enough. If Linux wants to aspire for mainstream acceptance, then the user experience has to match with the expectations of users in the mainstream.
If Linux advocates want to claim that people are ignorant and need to learn something, then they should get out of their command-line comfort zones and teach something.
1 year, 1 month ago by arjw
Joe Sixpack LoL. I fubar'd the link ;)
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
@rcadden Consumers are lazy bastards then and I don't want them using it. :)
DVD playback is really easy if you have the required stuff installed or go with a distro that has it all in there already.
1 year, 1 month ago by zerojay
We're breaking new ground here! Don't stop posting on this thread until we've SOLVED THE PROBLEM! : 0
Really, though. Running linux is a great way to learn more about computers. There are other ways to use computers if you're not interested in learning more (not aimed at you, Ricky) And GUI's make people stupid. And keep me employed!
Who said "You should make things as easy to use as possible, but not overly so."?
1 year, 1 month ago by norcalbarney
@arjw Isn't that what 'man' does?
1 year, 1 month ago by zerojay
GUIs and UIs should not make people stupid. They should make people want to discover more about thier investments. Unfortunately, this line of thinking relies on the fact that people want to learn more about something rather than get something done...
...I'd continue but I think I just made my point.
1 year, 1 month ago by arjw
@arjw That's good and all, but you and @rcadden are ignoring the very clear example me, @zerojay and @BUGabundo have mentioned. In Linux it is a simple thing of putting any format in there, and the OS will take care of automatically downloading the codecs you need and installing them. WMP has never done this, not even for a simple .avi file. It always, consistently fails to download a simple codec, and instead sends me to a Windows website and a generic help page telling me to search for the codecs. Gthx, telling me I need to Google it.
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
@BUGabundo - this is a fresh install of Ubuntu. I inserted the DVD, totem actually auto-opened (which is nice), and says, 'Cannot read from resource'. That's the only message I got.
What's more, when I googled 'DVD ubuntu hardy heron', I ended up with thousands of results, all exactly what I was looking for, which tells me that I'm not having an oddball experience.
I've got Ubuntu installed on this machine so that I can genuinely experience and learn this stuff. I'm making the effort, just relaying my 'consumer' response, as well.
1 year, 1 month ago by rcadden
@norcalbarney +1 this has never been discussed before
1 year, 1 month ago by dantrevino
btw, the DVD is playing now. :)
If Totem had given me the message, 'I need to download some codecs to play this DVD, is that ok?', and I could've clicked 'yes', and boom, done, THAT'S fine.
1 year, 1 month ago by rcadden
free advice :
alt+F2 and type: update-manager and make sure you have updates.
Also enable extra repositories (System -> Admin.. -> Software Sources -> ... Restricted..)
And check for updates again.
I guess the DVD codec did not install because you had not enable the restricted reps.
Also please file a usability bug against totem for not doing what it should on http://launchpad.net/ubuntu
Thanks in advance.
1 year, 1 month ago by BUGabundo
Does Windows XP play the DVDs if you just "put a DVD in and do nothing more?" Why are we stuck with playing a DVD/VOB only by the way, what about AVI/MP4? PDF? tar.gz/RAR? Windows doesn't even come with a decent text editor.
After installing Windows Vista, I feel like only 20% of the job is done. Then starts the hellish process of installing drivers, essential utilities, programming tools and what not. 2-3 days of your life you are not going to get back and you have to manually keep the apps up to date and I have no idea how Windows guys put up with such nuisance.
1 year, 1 month ago by tabrez
@rcadden - It usually does, which is what's really confusing about this situation.
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
@tabrez: when i asked @zerojay if he was sarcastic or not i was referring to this statement: "That's the public's fault then. Linux isn't an appliance. It's not a toaster. Learn something about it... read a man page or two. Linux isn't for people that don't think they need instructions and if they complain about it, well... too bad. All they are doing is showing their own ignorance, not a weakness in Linux."
1 year, 1 month ago by constantine
I haven't used Windows full time in over 10 years and each time I am forced to use it, I'm literally shocked that anyone could use it. It's clear that inertia is the only real reason Windows is still being used.
Ricky, glad you got it working... in my short Ubuntu experience, it asked me all that stuff right away when putting in a DVD.
1 year, 1 month ago by zerojay
@edy: In Linux it is a simple thing of putting any format in there, and the OS will take care of automatically downloading the codecs you need and installing them.
What does a user do when they don't know what a codec is? What about when the OS doesn't tell them a codec is needed? Or how about that off chance that off chance that they know what it is, the OS tells them, and yet they don't find it having played the google/linux-forum-r-us game? Who is the problem then, Linux, the Linux community, or the person looking?
Its fine if we want to say that people should be computing smarter. I'm with @zerojay, stupid people shouldn't be on a keyboard no more than behind the wheel. However, we have driving schools that make driving accessible and give a semblance of there being more to driving than 4 wheels and pedal control. When is the last time you heard joe-casual user saying they were looking into Linux courses because they wanted to discover more? It doesn't happen, because frankly speaking, the elitest attidue of the louder Linux advocates keeps that at bay.
1 year, 1 month ago by arjw
@constantine: i'll have to agree and also disagree with you.
Distros like Ubuntu are being aimed at "regular" users, so your response aint the best.
But i too believe that users should learn something before using it.
RTFM
1 year, 1 month ago by BUGabundo
@BUGabundo: one can file usability bugs with Ubuntu? Freaking awesome. Maemo's bugzilla needs a section for that too IMO. Thanks for that link.
1 year, 1 month ago by arjw
@arjw Then again, the idea I've mentioned often before, a 'first run wizard/mage' that guides you through getting these things set up, such as codecs, productivity/office software, etc. The Fedora DVD just gives you a huge checklist divided into categories. Granted, overkill since most of the packages are old by next week, but it's a step that should be taken. But again, from my experience, it's always been pop the DVD in, get asked if I want the codecs, click Yes, and done. The first run mage is still something I keep mentioning, but am not doing mahself cuz....well, you took part in that conversation yesterday so you know ;)
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
@arjw: please file any number of usability bugs you find necessary to fix stuff.
Most devs have many troubles with user design.
Its the way they work. if it works for them, great. I'm not a coder and I also do that.
Who ever didnt do some small app, and put a message saying something cryptic enough that only they understand?
1 year, 1 month ago by BUGabundo
As Ricky points out, sometimes finding Linux information on how to do one little thing is hard! If you search for Ubuntu, you'll find tutorials for lots of versions of Ubuntu. If you don't know that 8.04 is nicknamed Hardy Heron, you'll have a tougher time.
Also, it's important to note that Totem is an application which Ubuntu chose to include in their distribution. Totem, or even Ubuntu, is not "Linux". It's just one flavor of Linux. Ubuntu has made great strides towards usability compared to other distributions, but there's still a long way to go before it's Mom-Installable.
1 year, 1 month ago by norcalbarney
@arjw: @constantine see http://yokozar.livejournal.com/18395.html
>> Candidates for annoying bugs are anything that aggravates you about Ubuntu. Using the system should be fun, even if it's not very functional. Stuff like repetitive dialog boxes that ask the same question over and over (or worse, pop back up after you told them to go away) are perfect candidates for this list.
>> I encourage everyone to file more usability bugs. This is a good example: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evince/+bug/278907
1 year, 1 month ago by BUGabundo
From my perspective I have to agree with @rcadden on this. I'm currently running Ubuntu to get a grasp of a Linux OS but my problem is that I work 7 days a week, when I need to do something on my computer I want it to just do it, not have to spend time figuring out how to do it. From my standing, Windows seems to do that.
I suspect that if I had the time to spend to sit down and understand how it all works and research I may well end up with a different opinion, however as it currently stands with me if I have the choice of whetehr to boot into Windows or boot into UIbuntu, Windows is going to win.
1 year, 1 month ago by munkimatt
To be clear - having to apply updates, or individually install things as needed is not a bad thing. With any Windows PC, and with this install of Ubuntu, I was immediately greeted with the need to download updates, and that's not an issue.
The issue, in this case, was that for whatever reason, something as simple as a DVD would not play, and gave me a generic error message, without offering to help me fix it. Apparently that's not how it's supposed to work, which is good. However, given the number of Google results, I'm inclined to believe that it is, in fact, a common experience.
As I said, aside from that, Ubuntu has actually been a rather pleasant and user-friendly experience. Everything else, thus far, has just worked.
1 year, 1 month ago by rcadden
@norcalbarney That sort of mentality is so 90's man! As I've mentioned, there are computer vendors who will sell you a computer preinstalled with your choice of Linux distro (often the big 3, Ubuntu, Suse, and...that bastard distro) and will sell you contracts for customer support and do most of what you ask, including changing out your distro for another, at least companies will. It's not just a "I'm gonna download this new flavor and install myself because no one else can".
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
@arjw What does a user do when they don't know what a codec is?
You really can't blame gnu/linux alone for this. Windows Vista gives same errors about missing codecs when you try to play (n-k) different video formats(k = 2 or 3: wmv, vob, etc.). The difference is, it is trivial to install required codecs in Ubuntu and it is "you are on your own" on Windows.
1 year, 1 month ago by tabrez
@rcadden: i told u once, i'm telling you twice.
File a bug against it
It should work. if it doesnt its a bug.
complaing here as little effect. filling a bug, lets you know when it gets fixed, and also HELPs you HELPING others.
1 year, 1 month ago by BUGabundo
In conclusion: If it doesn't work, file a bug, and it'll probably get fixed by next week. Try filing a bug for Windows, and it'll get fixed by next year if next year is when Windows releases a new version of their OS ;)
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
@edy: its not fixed in the next release, its shaded with a 3D button and different funcitonality to disguise the fact that it was never fixed in teh first place, while requiring a higher spec system to do the same task :P
1 year, 1 month ago by arjw
@edy i filed a bug against an HP drivers installer (it added and HOST entry without a \n at the begging, so it got inline with localhost).
Until now it got several ppl reading it, and ZERO responses.
1 year, 1 month ago by BUGabundo
Yeah, sometimes it'll turn into a popularity contest, sadly. It's like real life, you gotta know the right people xD
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
@munkimatt believe me, gnu/linux is not that hard when compared to using Windows: it is just a question of familiarity.
People are not averse to putting in time to learn how to use a computer the first time - using Windows. But they don't want to put any effort in learning a new OS, they just want gnu/linux to work exactly like Windows.
The experience of a person who is familiar with gnu/linux and now moving on to Windows will be more frustrating since there is no quality community forums for Windows out there like there are for gnu/linux(mailing lists, forums, irc, etc.)
1 year, 1 month ago by tabrez
@munkimatt I guess you were born with the knowledge of how to do it under Windows then?
You had to learn how to do everything you do now under Windows... it's no different.
1 year, 1 month ago by zerojay
LoL...I once searched for a good Windows bittorent client, and I stumbled upon a forum where someone asked much the same. I peek the forum, and one person says "Why would you want software that is used for violating copyright 99% of the time?" and the admin of the forum responded much the same, and effectively closed the thread at 2 replies -.- What an a-hole....I download linux distros through bt, and music from Jamendo \m/
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
@tabrez but on the occasions I asked for help (not with Ubuntu admittedly, another distro) I was pretty pissed off with the answers I got back. Yes, it's all well and good telling me to Google for it but I have and ended up here so just replying "google" doesn't exactly help.
1 year, 1 month ago by munkimatt
@zerojay I know where you are coming from, but everyone used to say that everything worked under Apple and was difficult under Windows (which also was restrictive and anti-competitive). Now it is the other way round and Linux is just a newbie (and enthusiasts toy).
I like Linux but I side with @munkimatt on this argument
1 year, 1 month ago by WaveyDavey001
@BUGabundo I had filed a bug related to wrong script generated for offline download by SPM soon after April 2008 release. The patch was also submitted immediately. It took almost 5 months for the patch to be applied.
Another bug that I filed almost a year ago, #158601, not fixed in 8.10 Beta release.
1 year, 1 month ago by tabrez
@tabrez: I have bugs filed and set at NEW from the first week I used Ubuntu 3 years ago.
1 year, 1 month ago by BUGabundo
@zero You've gotta understand here, I'm not having a go at any distro at all. But you've gotta question how at the age of 12 I manged to pick up how to work a Windows PC fairly adequately without having the abilty to turn to Google to ask for advice but now I'm 25 and sat there looking at Ubuntu sometimes thinking "What the fu..."
1 year, 1 month ago by munkimatt
I disagree with everyone a bit here xD @WaveyDavey001 - Windows isn't the Holy Grail of usability, but OSX isn't always intuitive either. Apps built on Cocoa will often not maximize completely, which is sometimes stupid because sometimes you want an app to cover the whole screen to eliminate distractions and maximize usage of your screen space, especially when on smaller screens such as on laptops. There's also horrible window management, where you don't always have a sense of how many windows of a certain program (browser, docs, etc) you have open. D:
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
@munkimatt It would have been no different if you had sat down in front of Linux when you were 12 and Windows at 25.
1 year, 1 month ago by zerojay
@munkimatt: because younger kids can do stuff that US older can't!
1 year, 1 month ago by BUGabundo
@munkimatt support in gnu/linux communities is largely driven by volunteer effort, so it is bound to deliver mixed results. But if you just hang in there and get to know the channels better, in a few months time you will know how to get every single one of your queries answered through IRC, Forums or Mailing Lists.
To me, support for issues about Windows means Googling or IMing your friends till you drop dead.
1 year, 1 month ago by tabrez
@munkimatt - You're severely underestimating yourself, and the fact that yes, humans can be trained, and once we fall into some sort of routine, it can prove difficult to break out of it.
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
@munkimatt: visit #linux or #ubuntu right here on #jaiku and see how many times i provided help to users.
we all just _tried_ to do that to you here, too
1 year, 1 month ago by BUGabundo
@zerojay I don't know mate, I'm fairly intuitive and if I'm really stuck just point me in the right direction and I'll figure it out. But like I said at the start, I've got it on my PC for a reason, and that's to learn. I'm going to stick at it until I get the hang of it.
Oh and just another thing, anyone here see the problems I had getting it installed in the first place? It was a nightmare, enough to put any curious novice off
1 year, 1 month ago by munkimatt
@munkimatt Seeing how I compile every piece of software on my machine manually and installed it all manually, so... no, can't say I can help you there. ;)
My wife installed Ubuntu with just a few clicks on her laptop with zero problems and zero help from me.
1 year, 1 month ago by zerojay
i don't disagree @edythemighty things do go wrong, but the point I was making was that people point and blame Microsoft for historical things rather than factual things. It is the pantomime baddy.
"Normal" people who use Linux I am guessing are those who use it out of the box (buying an "Eee" etc). Most discussion that you see is by fans and enthusiasts who can be bothered to try 20 different things, before getting a USB modem to work or similar.
I know I will likely be using Linux almost exclusively in a year or two, but not now.
1 year, 1 month ago by WaveyDavey001
But that's just the thing! With the 'EeePC' and all those other Linux-based PCs, we're seeing a shift away from " fans and enthusiasts who can be bothered to try 20 different things" and to a commercially viable operating system with decent tech support
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
@zerojay I believe the problem was with my RAID setup. If I was so determined to get it installed there would have been no way I would have taken all my media off and backed up it etc. It was literally only because I wanted to put the effort in.
1 year, 1 month ago by munkimatt
@edy but wasn't there a statistic on Engadget the other day along the lines of "there's 8 Linux Eees returned to every 1 XP Eee"? Doesn't that suggest that it's not at a point yet where it was really that commercially viable?
1 year, 1 month ago by munkimatt
@munkimatt I said we're seeing a shift, didn't say we're there yet ;) That much is obvious.
1 year, 1 month ago by edythemighty
@edythemighty I agree again, but as a "high street" consumer I expect to be able to do high street things. Office Suite - Check, Internet Connectivity - Check, Some Games - Check, eMail - Check. Then I want to synchronise my phone - FAIL. Then I buy one of those fancy USB dongle things that there pushing - FAIL then I wanna download and install an extra programme or two that my mates are using - FAIL.
Repositries/Suppositries WTF? I just want it to work
So the shift away has started, but aint there yet.
1 year, 1 month ago by WaveyDavey001
I have been dual-booting for some time now and really like Ubuntu. However, at times, I have felt the frustration that @rcadden mentioned. Linux has a lot of promise and I want to migrate completely to it but I'm not there yet. I'll keep exploring it and learning and hopefully soon I'll be able to migrate 100%.
1 year, 1 month ago by angelmartinez